“We Can’t Afford A World Empire, Mr. Ferguson”; Heated Ukraine Debate Highlights With Scott Horton, Niall Ferguson

In the most heated ZeroHedge Debate yet, historians Scott Horton and Sir Niall Ferguson clashed vigorously in their tellings of what led to the war in Ukraine. We’ve compiled the most interesting and riveting moments below but encourage readers to listen to the entire debate because, at the end, Ferguson and Horton agreed on one thing: the war must end through peaceful settlement.

Ferguson, a world-renowned scholar and author, and Horton, founder of the Libertarian Institute with his newly published Provoked book, were joined by Hoover Institute fellow Peter Robinson.

Watch the full debate here (or listen on Spotify):

For those short on time, here were notable moments:

A Dwindling Empire

With 750 military bases worldwide, can the U.S. Empire sustain itself? Neither historian thinks so but Ferguson argues “primacy” is worth maintaining.

Ferguson: “America was not likely or able to run an empire, but… we must want American primacy to endure in Europe as well as in Asia. The United States has to prioritize. It faces a hostile axis of China, Russia, Iran and North Korea. They threaten American interests in multiple locations.”

Dismissing this as little more than jargon, Horton called out Ferguson’s lack of candor compared to his 2003-self debating neocon Bob Kagan (Victoria Nuland’s husband) when Ferguson readily admitted “United States is an empire” and should “acknowledge the fact, and do the job properly.” Horton continued by blasting Ferguson’s Iraq War record as the latter was a leading proponent of it.

Horton [in response to Ferguson claiming Ukraine's death count dwarfs that of Mid-East]: “There are 37 million people driven out of their homes by the terror wars. At least four million people killed according to the Costs of War Project at Brown University. You’re absolutely wrong about that. There’s still war going on in Somalia and all across the Middle East.”

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— ZeroHedge Debates (@zerohedgeDebate) November 28, 2024

2014: Coup or Revolution

The events of 2014 — Maidan Revolution and Putin’s annexation of Crimea — are often used (selectively) by both sides of this wider debate.

After Horton characterized Maidan as a U.S.-backed “street putsch” led by Nazi descendants, he went on to argue that Viktor Yanukovych — the former Ukrainian President often characterized as “pro-Putin” by the corporate press — was far from it.

Horton: “Yanukovych wanted to sign the association agreement with the European Union… Henry Kissinger said [the events that led to Maidan were] all Angela Merkel’s fault because she played too hardball.”

Applying positive attributions towards Yanukovych did not sit well with Sir Niall. “To hear Scott Horton defend the Yanukovych regime, one of the most corrupt regimes to have emerged since the collapse of communism, is a bit rich,” he said. Ferguson — citing his personal trips to Ukraine — also vehemently denied any Nazi involvement in the uprising of 2014.

“Did you meet with Andriy Parubiy?” Horton retorted, referencing a prominent Ukrainian neo-nazi and former member of parliament who was present at the revolt.

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— ZeroHedge Debates (@zerohedgeDebate) November 28, 2024

What should Trump do?

Despite heated disagreements, common ground appeared during the final and perhaps most important question: what now? Included in both historian’s answers: a negotiated settlement and Ukraine’s acceptance of the reality that Russia now controls part of its territory.

Ferguson: “An armistice is I think the most likely outcome. A ceasefire — and in that ceasefire — I think it’s highly likely that Russia will remain in control of somewhat less than 20% of Ukrainian territory.”

Horton agreed but added one caveat. Zelensky needs protection, but not from Russia…

Horton: “Nazis like Dmitry Yurash and Andrey Perubiy and Andrey Boletsky have threatened to murder Poroshenko and Zelensky repeatedly when they talk about trying to make peace. Zelensky tried to implement the Minsk 2 deal in 2019 and they threatened to murder him. And the New York Times said these are credible threats.”

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— ZeroHedge Debates (@zerohedgeDebate) November 28, 2024

If these two can agree… maybe there is hope for peace.

We hope you enjoyed and check in Saturday morning for our “Gold Standard” debate moderated by Real Vision’s Ash Bennington available exclusively to premium/pro subs.